Curse

Navaros · Apr 28, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Explain to me how I am supposed to tell whether an unexpected increase in the RRPM bar due to the use of a speed buff at a specific point/place is unambiguously an exploit. If the RRPM bar were a nice, consistent function, I would know. But it isn't. More importantly, if it were that predictable, Rollerbeetle Racing would become boring quickly, because there wouldn't be that extra half-second of hidden time in the course design still out there for racers to uncover.

Everyone knew double ram was an exploit because they flat-out refused to tell anyone else on these forums about it until after they had won ill-gotten rollerbeetles and become rich via using the exploit. None of the exploiters were willing to let the average joe know how to also use the exploit they were using to unfairly win constantly, because they knew if they made the exploit public, then everyone would be on an even playing field and they would have no longer have vastly unfair exploit advantage via which to win ill-gotten rollerbeetle gains.

How the exploit was kept secret like this to maintain the ridiculously unfair advantage by those who profited from said exploit is evidence enough that they knew it was an exploit.

Even if they shouldn't be banned, they should definitely be stripped of their rollerbeetle and/or everything they sold it to another player for. But Kashrlyyk is right. In the past players were banned for exploiting similar bugs, yet this time they get off scott-free from a ban and get rich too to boot. That's not right.

jeff7878 · Apr 28, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

There one thing i would like too point out, I been doing this roller beetle stuff for over 2 yrs and i finish in the top 3 per race alot. But never got in the top 100. But this is not my point. Alot of people you talk too say its luck and skill combos correct. Well if thats what it is. Well if theres nothing going on Then some of them people that are on that top 100 list every yr more then 10 times. Must have some of the best luck around too be on there every yr more than once. Being sense its based on luck skill combos and the luck of power ups. After what i seen yesterday im starting too doubt that.

Lain Akazukin · Apr 28, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

As you say it's luck and skill combined, if you lack one of these you just won't get a top 100 time. There is no exploit or syncing or whatever excuse you come up with in order to deny your own lack of skill.

Ctb · Apr 28, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Explain to me how I am supposed to tell whether an unexpected increase in the RRPM bar due to the use of a speed buff at a specific point/place is unambiguously an exploit.

It was a bug and you exploited it, so it was an exploit. You'd have to be pretty thick to think that an undocumented behavior which gave a considerable advantage and altered a core mechanic of the mini-game without any contextual reason for doing so was anything other than a bug. Arguing that you shouldn't be chastised for using that exploit because it "might have been a bug in the documentation" (or whatever lame excuse can be conjured up with a little bit of imagination and a ridiculous amount of intentional ignorance) is on par with arguing with a cop that you shouldn't get a ticket because your speeding MIGHT have been caused by aliens from Pluto testing a special anti-gravity device that removed all the air in front of your car and suddenly caused you to speed up do to a lack of air friction.

Yea. Maybe. Anything is technically possible.

But it's still a pretty stupid argument.

It was a bug that people with too much spare time sat and exploited so they could be proud of themselves for being at the top of a video game leaderboard, now it's fixed.

End of story.

Martin Alvito · Apr 28, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Everyone knew double ram was an exploit because they flat-out refused to tell anyone else on these forums about it until after they had won ill-gotten rollerbeetles and become rich via using the exploit.

Didn't use the double ram technique. I used good old Echo-SRB. Thanks for assuming. Many did use double Ram, I agree. However, I am speaking generally here, to show you how this argument falls flat on its face. The lack of an underlying standard for "fair play" in this context is the problem. See below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

It was a bug and you exploited it, so it was an exploit. You'd have to be pretty thick to think that an undocumented behavior which gave a considerable advantage and altered a core mechanic of the mini-game without any contextual reason for doing so was anything other than a bug. Arguing that you shouldn't be chastised for using that exploit because it "might have been a bug in the documentation" (or whatever lame excuse can be conjured up with a little bit of imagination and a ridiculous amount of intentional ignorance) is on par with arguing with a cop that you shouldn't get a ticket because your speeding MIGHT have been caused by aliens from Pluto testing a special anti-gravity device that removed all the air in front of your car and suddenly caused you to speed up do to a lack of air friction.

So you wish to argue by analogy? Won't fly. There's a posted speed limit law. I know, and the police officer knows, what is defined as speeding. This is common knowledge.

You can't extend this argument to the topic under debate. By this logic, one of the two following conditions would have to satisfy:

a) There exists some observable level of speed gain which is an "exploit".

b) All methods of finding a quicker way to run the race are an "exploit".

Neither can possibly hold in the context of a racing game. Attempting to argue that they can is the worst sort of sophistry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

None of the exploiters were willing to let the average joe know how to also use the exploit they were using to unfairly win constantly, because they knew if they made the exploit public, then everyone would be on an even playing field and they would have no longer have vastly unfair exploit advantage via which to win ill-gotten rollerbeetle gains.

I've made this argument before. I don't tell you how to run the race because I gain nothing by doing so and stand to lose significantly. Again, why don't you ask me to play poker with you and show you my cards? No way.

Solas · Apr 28, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Obviously people knew what thery were doing was wrong, During the last thread about this at the dragon festival they kept sayign that they were using just skill and knowledge of the coarse.

Me and others proberly gave them the benifit of the doubt, when it emerged that they did use it alot of respect and beleif in the argurments were lost.
Anet implemented the games for fun and they were, but some peopel seek and find ways to exploit, these succeded and ruined the idea of Beetle racing for me and proberly others.

With this Race weekend and the same people in the high scores some may think it was all skill knowledge of the coarse but this is the exact same thing they said before the last exploit was revealed, Trust has been lost.
Unless a Observer mode could be implemented like the HB rank (suggested by somone earlier) then peopel will know if its skill or not.

if your a fraid that you'd go down ranks wouldn't you still have the skill?
Skill> Impirsination

I would like to see somthing done to the exploiters tough, not a perma ban but maybe a 3 day suspension or somthing soft.
Anet really needs to clean up ( first critism i really have about anet)

btw this is only at people that used the exploit to get times, if you didn't then gratz on your score.
Anyone feels i've missed somthing or i am led on the wrong track feel free to guru pm me as this will proberly get locked adn i wont be on till the weekend.

Lain Akazukin · Apr 28, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Did it perhaps cross your mind that the ones who got top 100 scores last time and didn't know about double ram said those things? The ones actually knowing about the tactic ofcourse kept quiet about it, I would too if I had known about it. Like Martin already said, I'm not showing other people my cards when I play poker.

Ctb · Apr 28, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

There's a posted speed limit law.

And there's a skill description that explains the skill's behavior.

Martin Alvito · Apr 28, 2008, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed

Unless a Observer mode could be implemented like the HB rank (suggested by somone earlier) then peopel will know if its skill or not.

Observer mode outside of special events (ie: championship tournaments) is the single worst thing that ever happened to competitive play. It discourages innovation by reducing the payoff to a ridiculously low level. Even if you have a good idea, everyone and their aunt has copied it within 48 hours.

Yes, it brings the relatively steep learning curve associated with competitive play down. But the price is simply too high, in my estimation.

The problem with Obs in rollerbeetle is a bit different: everyone and their mother would be running the same line within a day. I've played matches with six solid players, and they are AWFUL. No one can post a decent time under those conditions without getting insanely lucky at the start. You'd just make the luck factor in racing that much more prominent.

Martin Alvito · Apr 28, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

And there's a skill description that explains the skill's behavior.

You're not paying attention.

As noted, the RRPM bar is silly glitchy. Further, who was to say that your "exploit" wasn't simply an undocumented "feature"?

The definition of "exploit" is fully in the eye of the beholder. It can only stick when there's a clear baseline expectation. And in this case, there just isn't one.

Just because the skill description reads one way doesn't mean the skill isn't functioning as intended. If you read the skill description of Ram, it says nothing whatsoever about a speed boost.

Yandawar · Apr 28, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

I only needed to be in a couple of races with one of the top racers (Yuris in my case), emulating his behaviour as much as possible, to see my own times increase tremendously. I can't do it consistently yet, but when I now hit 460k, I know that this wasn't purely luck, where before 440k would have been. And because of this experience, I now absolutely believe it's purely skill - and more importantly, knowledge - at work with these top racers. Sure, the boxes need to work out - but even when they don't, the knowledge of when exactly to use which skill makes such a tremendous difference that I have no trouble at all believing all these times are legit.

I do wish the top 100 would be on a per-character basis, though.

Polgara Val · Apr 28, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

A suggestion for ANET, it would probably be prudent to remove the quarterly list and start with a clean slate since some if not most of those times were done using the double ram skill (pre-nerf).

Since all times are now based without the double ram skill, it isint a true reflection of times in general, look at the top 20 fastest times in the daily list and you will notice nobody underneath those players has a quicker time then the 100th placed man in the quarterly list.

Pol

Ctb · Apr 28, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Further, who was to say that your "exploit" wasn't simply an undocumented "feature"?

I've already covered this line of "thinking" and won't debate it with you any further. It's an endless cycle since there's no limit to what "might have been". What is relevant is what was probable, and what was probable, given the extraordinary frequency of bugs in software, was that the behavior of the double ram cheat was unintended. Simply put, anybody who believes otherwise is either lying, intentionally ignorant, or plain stupid. End of debate.

Quote:

The definition of "exploit" is fully in the eye of the beholder.

No, it's not. Now my question becomes: are you lying, or just massively ignorant of basic information relevant to the topic?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia: Exploit (Computer Security)

(from the same word in the French language, meaning "achievement", or "accomplishment") is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that take advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerized).

If the Wikipedia definition is insufficient for you, I'd be happy to go find a dozen more sources that all say the same thing.

I also will not discuss this with you any further as there is no argument. It was an exploit by definition, end of debate.

I won't argue stupid and endless pedantics with you. If I wanted to bash my head on a brick wall for no particular reason, I'd go out on the sidewalk and do so.

Kashrlyyk · Apr 28, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

.. Further, who was to say that your "exploit" wasn't simply an undocumented "feature"?....

The update page itself does that. It says: "Fixed a bug!" and it DOESN`T say "Fixed the description!"

Lain Akazukin · Apr 28, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

And there's a skill description that explains the skill's behavior.

Going by the description ram should not give a speed boost either, so everyone using ram is exploiting a bug now because it does not explain the speed boost?

Kashrlyyk · Apr 28, 2008, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lain Akazukin

Going by the description ram should not give a speed boost either, so everyone using ram is exploiting a bug now because it does not explain the speed boost?

In the colloquial use the word "Ram" always involves a certain amount of speed. You can drive your car into another at the speed of a pedestrian, but people would not say you "rammed"(?) the car. Just remember all those movies where car ram each others.

Secondly the bug was not the velocity, but the fact that after "Ram" was over it went back to the last velocity before its usage. With double "Ram" that would mean you go back to 100% RPM, which was clearly not intended.

Here is an explaination of the bug: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=272

Risus · Apr 28, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

DIdn't help anything, top 30 positions is the same guy at least 15 times.

MoriaOrc · Apr 28, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

And there's a skill description that explains the skill's behavior.

I'm glad you brought this up! I said it in the last thread, and Lain said it in this thread, but it bears repeating. Ram makes NO MENTION of its speed boost mechanic. Period.

Then is it exploiting to use it (for example) to go through water while maintaining your speed? This is certainly an extremely non-obvious use for ram (and one that very few players seem to know about).

Quote:

In the colloquial use the word "Ram" always involves a certain amount of speed.

Does it also involve traveling through brief patches of deep water without slowing down? What about going up steep hills without slowing down? Saying that what it does should be obvious from the name is disingenuous with a skill mechanic as odd and precise as ram's is.

Now for another line of attack.

Kashrlyyk, you've been complaining that people that used double ram don't get banned. Lets work from the assumption that the Ram trick was obviously an exploit, and a very very bad one (it was neither in my opinion, it adds very little to a top time as this weekend has demonstrated, and only helps bring more consistency to certain areas). There is more then enough recent precedent as to whether or not ANet will issue bans. Consider this build: Cultist's Spike. Does insane amounts of AoE DPS, orders of a magnitude more then what anything else in the game is capable of. Fixed shortly after it was found in this update. This is the height of obviousness in skill-combo bug exploitation. Where were the bans? I don't recall one single ban being handed out over this.

*Edit*ed for grammatical correctness

byteme! · Apr 29, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Seems to me like everyone thinks they themselves are pro and the sight of someone consistently being "better" is unacceptable. The result is a bunch of whiners trying to find any which way to come up with an argument or reason to justify why they think the top leaders should not be where they are.

Judging by the top scores you all can rest your case. These people atop the ladder are "STILL BETTER THEN YOU" with or without said exploit. Get this over your heads people. There is no more argument. The best of the best have shown once again they are still "better then you" after the bug fix.

Killed u man · Apr 29, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

Seems to me like everyone thinks they themselves are pro and the sight of someone consistently being "better" is unacceptable. The result is a bunch of whiners trying to find any which way to come up with an argument or reason to justify why they think the top leaders should not be where they are.

Judging by the top scores you all can rest your case. These people atop the ladder are "STILL BETTER THEN YOU" with or without said exploit. Get this over your heads people. There is no more argument. The best of the best have shown once again they are still "better then you" after the bug fix.

It's not our fault you (and other people) prefer to live with eyecaps over their eyes...

Look, there is SKILL involved. This skill, however, is no more than knowing when to activate Ram and Dash.
Now, according to both descriptions (assuming you take the Ram speed buff into concideration), this would mean than when you are at ANY given RRPM, Ram should get you to 100%, no matter what, and Dash would up your speed by 25%...

Now logic, which is the one thing we got, tells us 2 obvious things:
-Ram is most effective at low speeds. Because the netto gain is higher than if you were to be at an initial higher speed.
-Dash is best used BELOW 80% and above 60% (whatever the natural rrpm is) RRPM.

From these 2 gives bits of information (and You can't proove either wrong), it isn't rocket science to figure out on WHEN to use your skills.

However, because there is no explanation on the effects of Hills and such other, Anet found it necessary NOT to give us the "idea" behind the RRPM meter, what exactly affects it, and eventually what is needed to keep it a high rate.

The fact that these people in top 100 get these monsterous scores (480K+) shows it isn't just a "small" effect the terrain has on the beetle. (Or stacking with skills)
This is 100% Anet's fault(The fact there is sucha small "elite"-lucky-few), and as far as I'm concerned, I concider the people in top 100 no more than lucky people who found an "exploit/glitch" that's on the thin line between acceptable and not acceptable, BUT in NO WAY I'm convinced that these people have more "skill" than I do...
If I had 1 match with ANY of these players at their best (assuming I could keep up with them), I would start getting these consistent 470K+ times aswell.

NO, it's NOT skill, it's mere luck and balancing the thin line between exploiting and "not-knowing-better"...

*This intire post is focused on the current top 100 aswell, as far as Dual Ram goes, that was glitched, heck it even shows on official Wiki, and thus these people deserve to get banned (temp or perm) and their prices (rollerbeetles) retracted...